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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Airduino&#8221; Scungy Anemometer Part 1: Detection and Amplification</title>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/?p=243&#038;cpage=1#comment-21842</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:13:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/?p=243#comment-21842</guid>
		<description>Nice results; that&#039;s a pretty good voltage swing. Sounds like I underestimated your level of understanding, sorry!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice results; that&#8217;s a pretty good voltage swing. Sounds like I underestimated your level of understanding, sorry!</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/?p=243&#038;cpage=1#comment-21841</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 01:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/?p=243#comment-21841</guid>
		<description>Jeff, thanks for challenging me on my sloppy prototyping, sloppy thinking, and sloppy description.  The curse and blessing of keeping a blog is exposing my mistakes for all the world to see and correct. :-)

I was actually testing the optoreflector in circuit and estimating &quot;resistance&quot; based on the value of the series resistor on the collector.  However, I think I tried some resistors that I had misfiled and was grabbing things too fast to double-check their values, so I wasn&#039;t using what I thought I was using, which led me far astray.

Further, I hadn&#039;t looked for a datasheet and assumed the optoreflector would function at a distance of an inch.  In fact, now that I&#039;ve found a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.optekinc.com/pdf/OPB740W.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;datasheet&lt;/a&gt;, I see the nominal distance is about .1&quot;, which is far too short for my application, and further explains why I was getting ludicrous results in my testing.

So out of curiosity I just hooked the optoreflector back up and tested with a bunch of resistors.  My bench power supply was producing 4.93V and R&lt;sub&gt;D&lt;/sub&gt; was 220&#937;.  The phototransistor&#039;s series resistor was on the collector (not emitter), hence R&lt;sub&gt;C&lt;/sub&gt;.

&lt;table align=&quot;center&quot; border=1 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=5&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;th&gt;R&lt;sub&gt;C&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/th&gt;&lt;th&gt;V&lt;sub&gt;CE(off)&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/th&gt;&lt;th&gt;V&lt;sub&gt;CE(on)&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/th&gt;&lt;th&gt;&#916;V&lt;/th&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;2.2K&#937;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.92&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.85&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;.07&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.7K&#937;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.90&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.66&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;.24&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;6.8K&#937;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.89&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.72&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;.17&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;10K&#937;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.87&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.61&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;.26&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;20K&#937;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.82&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.15&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;.67&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;47K&#937;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.68&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;3.43&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;1.25&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;68K&#937;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.57&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;2.63&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;1.94&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;110K&#937;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.37&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;.30&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;4.07&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;220K&#937;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;3.95&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;.14&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;3.81&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;470K&#937;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;3.20&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;.11&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;3.09&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;1.0M&#937;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;2.25&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;.09&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;2.16&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;1.5M&#937;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;1.75&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;.08&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;1.67&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;/table&gt;

You can see that the best bang for the buck comes around 100K&#937; -- a large enough voltage swing that I&#039;d be comfortable feeding that into a Schmitt-trigger input with no amplification or buffering (assuming the input impedance was high enough, which I think it is).

Of course there&#039;s still the problem that it&#039;s optimized to work at .1&quot; and really doesn&#039;t work at all at the 1&quot; that I needed for this application.  But I&#039;m very glad to know how to use these &lt;em&gt;right&lt;/em&gt;, for future reference.

Thanks again!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff, thanks for challenging me on my sloppy prototyping, sloppy thinking, and sloppy description.  The curse and blessing of keeping a blog is exposing my mistakes for all the world to see and correct. <img src='http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I was actually testing the optoreflector in circuit and estimating &#8220;resistance&#8221; based on the value of the series resistor on the collector.  However, I think I tried some resistors that I had misfiled and was grabbing things too fast to double-check their values, so I wasn&#8217;t using what I thought I was using, which led me far astray.</p>
<p>Further, I hadn&#8217;t looked for a datasheet and assumed the optoreflector would function at a distance of an inch.  In fact, now that I&#8217;ve found a <a href="http://www.optekinc.com/pdf/OPB740W.pdf" rel="nofollow">datasheet</a>, I see the nominal distance is about .1&#8243;, which is far too short for my application, and further explains why I was getting ludicrous results in my testing.</p>
<p>So out of curiosity I just hooked the optoreflector back up and tested with a bunch of resistors.  My bench power supply was producing 4.93V and R<sub>D</sub> was 220&Omega;.  The phototransistor&#8217;s series resistor was on the collector (not emitter), hence R<sub>C</sub>.</p>
<table align="center" border=1 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=5>
<tr>
<th>R<sub>C</sub></th>
<th>V<sub>CE(off)</sub></th>
<th>V<sub>CE(on)</sub></th>
<th>&Delta;V</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2.2K&Omega;</td>
<td>4.92</td>
<td>4.85</td>
<td>.07</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>4.7K&Omega;</td>
<td>4.90</td>
<td>4.66</td>
<td>.24</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>6.8K&Omega;</td>
<td>4.89</td>
<td>4.72</td>
<td>.17</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>10K&Omega;</td>
<td>4.87</td>
<td>4.61</td>
<td>.26</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>20K&Omega;</td>
<td>4.82</td>
<td>4.15</td>
<td>.67</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>47K&Omega;</td>
<td>4.68</td>
<td>3.43</td>
<td>1.25</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>68K&Omega;</td>
<td>4.57</td>
<td>2.63</td>
<td>1.94</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>110K&Omega;</td>
<td>4.37</td>
<td>.30</td>
<td>4.07</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>220K&Omega;</td>
<td>3.95</td>
<td>.14</td>
<td>3.81</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>470K&Omega;</td>
<td>3.20</td>
<td>.11</td>
<td>3.09</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>1.0M&Omega;</td>
<td>2.25</td>
<td>.09</td>
<td>2.16</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>1.5M&Omega;</td>
<td>1.75</td>
<td>.08</td>
<td>1.67</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p>You can see that the best bang for the buck comes around 100K&Omega; &#8212; a large enough voltage swing that I&#8217;d be comfortable feeding that into a Schmitt-trigger input with no amplification or buffering (assuming the input impedance was high enough, which I think it is).</p>
<p>Of course there&#8217;s still the problem that it&#8217;s optimized to work at .1&#8243; and really doesn&#8217;t work at all at the 1&#8243; that I needed for this application.  But I&#8217;m very glad to know how to use these <em>right</em>, for future reference.</p>
<p>Thanks again!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/?p=243&#038;cpage=1#comment-21840</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 23:39:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/?p=243#comment-21840</guid>
		<description>Hi Keith,

For future reference, those photointerruptors would probably be ok. Depending on your ohmmeter, they probably won&#039;t show any resistance change. As they&#039;re transistors they need a bias voltage applied between the collector and emitter. In a normal bipolar transistor the current that flows from collector to emitter is controlled by the current flowing from base to emitter. In a phototransistor the base current is created by incident light. 

So connect the emitter to ground, and the collector to your power rail via a bias resistor. The voltage on the collector is your output signal. Depends on your device, but you probably want a collector current around 1mA. The voltage across the transistor will be between 1 and 2V, so with, say, a 5V supply the bias resistor will be around 3-4k. Check the datasheets for some more accurate numbers, and experiment with values to tune the sensitivity. A very similar circuit may be used for a photodiode; just make sure it&#039;s reverse-biased. 

Your ohmmeter probably only puts tens of mV across the transistor, so it&#039;s nowhere near conducting and measures high resistance. Even if it did put a couple of volts across the transistor, without knowing the circuitry of the ohmmeter the results won&#039;t help you design a circuit.

Good luck,
Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Keith,</p>
<p>For future reference, those photointerruptors would probably be ok. Depending on your ohmmeter, they probably won&#8217;t show any resistance change. As they&#8217;re transistors they need a bias voltage applied between the collector and emitter. In a normal bipolar transistor the current that flows from collector to emitter is controlled by the current flowing from base to emitter. In a phototransistor the base current is created by incident light. </p>
<p>So connect the emitter to ground, and the collector to your power rail via a bias resistor. The voltage on the collector is your output signal. Depends on your device, but you probably want a collector current around 1mA. The voltage across the transistor will be between 1 and 2V, so with, say, a 5V supply the bias resistor will be around 3-4k. Check the datasheets for some more accurate numbers, and experiment with values to tune the sensitivity. A very similar circuit may be used for a photodiode; just make sure it&#8217;s reverse-biased. </p>
<p>Your ohmmeter probably only puts tens of mV across the transistor, so it&#8217;s nowhere near conducting and measures high resistance. Even if it did put a couple of volts across the transistor, without knowing the circuitry of the ohmmeter the results won&#8217;t help you design a circuit.</p>
<p>Good luck,<br />
Jeff</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Neufeld</title>
		<link>http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/?p=243&#038;cpage=1#comment-21834</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Neufeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 02:57:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/?p=243#comment-21834</guid>
		<description>Josh, I don&#039;t need them right now but they&#039;d be nice to have on hand.  Do you recall where in the VCRs they&#039;re used?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh, I don&#8217;t need them right now but they&#8217;d be nice to have on hand.  Do you recall where in the VCRs they&#8217;re used?</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/?p=243&#038;cpage=1#comment-21833</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 02:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neufeld.newton.ks.us/electronics/?p=243#comment-21833</guid>
		<description>If you are still looking and want to scrounge something, I  have found old VCRs usually have a few useful reflective sensing ir LED/sensor pairs in them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are still looking and want to scrounge something, I  have found old VCRs usually have a few useful reflective sensing ir LED/sensor pairs in them.</p>
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